Reversing a bilge keel yacht

[BarnacleBill]

I was talking to my mate last night who bought a small bilge keeled yacht. He was telling me that it has a wide turning circle and he can't turn while reversing using the outboard, which he says is no use while manoeuvring in close quarters. The outboard is in a well so can't turn the outboard to 'vector' so to speak. Told him that this might be due to the bilge keels stopping the boat from turning on the pivot. Mentioned that I use ropes as a springer when leaving a pontoon. Could this be right and any hints I could pass on?
Cheers in advance
Bill

[aquaplane]

I think it's probably more the outboard/well combination than the bilge keels.

My trail sailer has an outboard on the back and it won't steer untill the boat is moving no matter which way I'm going.
I can't say I have noticed propwalk but there will be some.
I do have the luxury of steering by vectoring the motor though unlike your mate.
It should steer at least one way when going astern. And probably a bit if he gets some way on and then throttles back so the rudder can overcome the prop walk the other way.

My Centaur has bilge keels and an inboard. It's a different beast altogether when manouvering.
There is significant prop walk which I can use going astern.
There is good turning to be had from the prop/rudder combination when going ahead, unlike the off center outboard or your mates.
I sometimes come unstuck trying to make one boat work like the other and it doesn't happen.

I suppose your mate's boat is 22'ish long, easy enough to man handle and warp about to get it pointing the right direction before using the engine, I do that when needed, even get a bit of way on so I can steer sooner when I get aboard.

[BarnacleBill]

Thanks for that Aquaplane. I mentioned what you said to Geordie in the hope it would help him. He's been practicing manoeuvring and now getting a better feel of his boat.

[BarnacleBill]

Update: He was advised to fit an outboard bracket, which he did saying that there was a massive improvement.

[aquaplane]

Where does your mate sail his boat?

I had a couple of hairy experiences on the Clyde in an 18 footer when it was choppy. The worst was off Clydeport, wind against tide, the motor was comig out of the water and the waves stopped the boat so I had no way on at all.

Anyroad, glad he is getting somewhere, he does have the option of going back to the well if he feels the need.

[Silkie]

Sometimes the sensible option in a wee boat involves motoring into a nasty sea and this will not be made any easier by moving the prop 2 or 3 feet aft and probably a few inches higher too. For me this is more important than managing marginal marina manoeuvrability.

Driving into a berth is never a problem (touch wood) and I only once remember warping around to get out. Silkie has a long fin keel with the prop aft of the rudder. The outboard (in a well) has very little effect in reverse (wrong prop) and there is no way I can bring the bow through the wind going backwards. Usually however, anticipating which way she will want to turn and then getting some appropriate way on by walking her back and kicking off in the right direction as I step aboard will get us out without insurance involvement.

As Bob says, Geordie still has both options open if he changes his mind next year.

[Nick]

.
Fairwinds cannot be controlled in reverse - long keel, prop aft of the rudder and offset. I have had many interesting moments as a result.

I have heard people say that they wouldn't buy a Vega because she won't go astern. I've done maybe 15,000 miles in Fairwinds and I doubt if 10 of them have been in reverse gear, so I don't see it as a big issue.

As Silkie says, use warps. Park ahead then use warps to swing the boat round so you can go out ahead. The smaller the boat the easier this is.

[BarnacleBill]

Where does your mate sail his boat?

Geordie usually sails around the Cumbrae isles. He once ventured up to Holy Loch marina. Never again he said, Don't know if he meant the marina or the time it took him to get there. I use warps when reversing off the pontoon, find it easy enough. Nick, would that be due to the long keel? Years ago I had a single fin with the rudder behind the screw, I could turn it on a tanner, while the bilge keeled Hurley has totally different handling while reversing.
PS, what is TOP?

[Nick]

Years ago I had a single fin with the rudder behind the screw, I could turn it on a tanner

And there's the difference . . .

Long-keelers are always more difficult in reverse than fin-keelers, which tend to pivot round the fin. On a long keel boat the keel extends all the way aft and is contiguous with the skeg/rudder, so in reverse the turning effort required is considerable.

But more importantly, on Fairwinds the prop is aft of the rudder, not ahead of it, so there is no water flow over the rudder to give steerage at low speeds. This is also noticeable in ahead. With a conventional bilge-keeled yacht, the rate of turn can be increased by gunning the throttle and increasing the water flow over the rudder. With the prop aft of the rudder all that happens is you accelerate more quickly towards the thing you are trying to avoid.

TOP is 'The Other Place'