Jackstays - the ultimate solution?

[Nick]

Stainless wire rolls underfoot, webbing is flat but rots and can't be trusted unless you take it in all the time.

Why not get webbing double the width you need, wrap it round your stainless wire and sew it up double with the wire encased inside. A bit more work with the sewing machine would ensure that the wire stayed in the middle.

Now it won't roll but you're not depending on it for strength.

I'm sure there's a fatal flaw in this design, but I can't figure it out at the moment . . .

- Nick

[Guest]

Webbing won't rot because it is synthetic

[Nick]

Sorry . . .

perhaps 'rot' is not strictly the correct term . . . it degrades under exposure to ultra violet light and quickly loses its structural strength - possibly losing up to 90% of its strength in just a year in the tropics, maybe three years in temperate climes. This applies to most synthetic materials, including dacron sails. This is why there is a sacrificial strip on roller furling headsails.

If you use webbing jackstays and assume that they will remain as strong as the day you installed them, then I hope you never have to depend on them.

- Nick

[bilbo]

Sure, the s/s wire rope can roll/slip underfoot, and it can abrade deck gelcoat and other stuff. However, it's the only material that will remain strong enuff to do its critical job for you and yours when required - that's why the ORC and RORC insist on it on boats racing under their rules.

So, how to deal with the drawbacks.....

Consider the routing. Can a change be made that's beneficial? What about sheathing the wire rope in something gentler on the decks - such as plastic garden hose?

And while we're at it, how's about having a couple of personal lifelines that are 'permanently' clipped-on to the aft ends of the lifelines, and another to the helmsman's ringbolt, while at sea. Just like the winch handles, they come inside in harbour. Peeps can then clip-on before climbing up into the cockpit, and the helmsman is never without the option.

[DaveS]

Don't see why it wouldn't work. Climbing webbing used to be tubular (not sure if it still is, I'll ask one of our active climbers at the weekend): using this would save some sewing, and it would probably lie flatter. I'm interested since replacing the jackstays is one of this winter's jobs. Thinking a little further, could this maybe be an opportunity for reusing old rigging wire? It would be a bit stiffer - well a lot stiffer - but for reasonably straight runs might be OK?

[bilbo]

There is absolutely no point in buying, carrying and relying on any 'safety-of-life' device/system that was not absolutely reliable in extremis.

Climbers' tubular webbing would certainly suffice - but its cost will make your eyes water, and it will need periodic replacement due to UV degradation. My reaction is '£-overkill'.

Old rigging wire would be a most cost-effective 'recycling' option, with some simple sums - based on original rated strength - divided by a Safety Factor chosen by yourself. Have a careful think, or take an engineer's advice, regarding the possible shock loadings on each component - including the deck fittings. Those loads CAN be gigantic.

FWIW, I use a PETZL simple climbers' chest harness and personal life line made of a climbers' sling, rated at 3 times the load rating of your standard chandlers' setups - and cheaper. That is a consequence of reading how Glyn Charles was lost in the Sydney/Hobart, when his lifeline failed .....and others.

[Aja]

Is there not a flat hose you can buy? A bit like 'Anchorline' and comes on a reel. That would negate any stiching?

Donald

[Silkie]

As you have obviously noticed we tend to be parsimonious with new threads on here and if we have anything to say about chartplotters or jackstays we usually just resurrect the old chartplotter or jackstay thread but my goodness, five years between posts is setting a standard that will be hard to beat.

FWIW I have naked ss wire between u-bolts and a u-bolt through the bridgedeck (is this the right term for the vertical surface under the washboards?) where you can clip on before coming up and which allows the freedom of the small cockpit. The jackstays run alongside the coachroof and there's only a couple of feet of each exposed on the foredeck. It does mark the gel coat but means that it is impossible to stand on in such a way that it can roll if only going as far as the mast.

[bilbo]

five years between posts is setting a standard that will be hard to beat.

You've just reminded me about Richard Adams' home PC - 'Deep Thought'....

I was taught to survive in military aviation by a balance between seeming outwardly rather laid-back about all this safety guff, and doing a lot of hard thinking under the surface. In particular, to look long and hard at systems, kit and procedures that have been accepted without thought or question for a long time. The guys who taught me are still around.......

So, here's some food for thought.....

If/when someone falls overboard, consider the whole range of situations, then tell yourself exactly what you will do with one of those two expensive horseshoe lifebuoys that adorn your pushpit. Have you actually tried this in a no-compromises situation? What happened, and what raised serious questions about the whole idea of throwing a light weight foam-filled thingy ( tied with lots of string to another plastic thingy full of dead batteries ) as far and as accurately as needed?

Is there an issue? Could there possibly be a better way? Or will complacency slink in.....?

[garredfox]

The best policy is NOT to fall overboard. We find this works most of the time.

[bilbo]

The best policy is NOT to fall overboard

You 'n I are wholly in agreement on that. If everyone else put as much effort and resource into staying secured to the boat as they do into MOB 'recovery theory', you 'n I would be a whole lot happier peeps. But it doesn't work like that.

I sail on others' boats, as many of us do. One recent trip, from Plymouth towards The Lofotens on a new-build lugger, saw NO jackstays, no guardrails, pulpit or pushpit, no ringbolts, no liferings, no personal lifelines, no lifejackets - and water streaming in from a score of leaks the owner was too complacent about. My own lifeline got secured around the mizzen for the helmsman - but none of the b*****s bothered to use it.

I got off at Oban. Didn't want the paperwork.....

[cpedw]

I was going to start a new thread but I noticed this one has a 5-yearly revival cycle so it's due for a refresh.

How long does UV-resistant polyester webbing last? Ours spends the entire season (about April to October) out under the relentless Argyll sun. It's rarely clipped on to and hasn't yet been loaded up by a MOB. I'm thinking 10 years might be pushing it, though at the current rate of falling overboard, it seems redundant.

Derek

[marisca]

Try pulling the stitching apart at the ends. The stitching usually goes before the webbing.

See you again in 5 years!

[Pete Cooper]

Just looking on the Jimmy Green site(just for a reference - other suppliers are available) and it seems that to do two jackstays of 8m each would only cost £25(ish)(£1.6/m on-line) so if you are concerned why not simply replace every year?

[cpedw]

The stitching seems to be in good nick. The webbing itself isn't fraying or showing any signs of wear or deterioration. It's also quite supple.

Reading on the web has found recommendations to use coloured webbing to show UV degradation. Surely that will show degradation of the dye or whatever is doing the colouring, not of the fabric itself. It's also recommended to have different colours for webbing and stitching so failure of the stitching is obvious. That sounds sensible; mine is all white, but not due to fading.

I agree it's not a high cost item but I'm still reluctant to bin it if there's no good reason to. It would be different if I could find a good use for old webbing.

Derek