Gaelic for sailors

[Silkie]

Are you embarrassed by your inability to pronounce the names of your favourite anchorages and least-favourite rocks?

Do you wish you had a better grasp of this wonderful language?

You are not alone! Register today and for the remarkably reasonable price... etc.

I'm happy to agree with Donald about the examples he gives since they are relatively well-known but it does disturb me that I can't confidently speak about many of the names on my charts. How often does Reisa an t-Sruith come up in conversation frinstance?

[bosun higgs]

I used to go to meetings at UKHO as a member of their consultative group. Towards the end of this time and as they were issuing new Scottish charts they said that it was their new policy to use only the Gaelic names with no Englis alternative as they said the OS had already done. I guess it was to appease Scots Nats but we did point out that charts were used in emergency situations, for example to call for help from the MCA, and used by lots of nationalities whose native tongue wasnt English or Gaelic. In other words it was a real safety risk done for no sensible reason.

I dont know whether they modified their plans. Did they?

I live in Wales and I support the local policy of encouraging the use of Welsh - but on road signs that is with an English alternative. English is after all the nearest thing we have to an international language

[Telo]

It's an interesting point, but I cannot answer the Bosun's question. I suspect that many of the issues were perhaps more to do with consistency and accuracy, rather than appeasing supporters of a political party whose first, and for many, only, language will be almost exclusively English. However, I can't say I've noticed any significant changes with either OS or UKHO placenames.

The old black and white charts, the ones with the beautiful line drawings and originally drawn mostly in the 19th century, where appropriate, displayed Gaelic names for features, as the UKHO still does, although in some cases the spelling may have changed owing to standardisation or rectifying errors.

Going back to Silkie's original point, mangling languages can be bit embarrassing at times, "Reisa an t-Sruith" being a case in point. Having a stab at it, I'd guess, but don't know, that it sounds much as it's spelt, with the the each vowel having its place, possibly a soft "s", and an aspirate ending. Any Gaelic speakers on here?

"Reisa an t-Sruith" might be bad enough for sailors, but at least there we have a certain level of consistency with Bogha, Rubha, Eilean, Sgeir, Dubh, Dearg, etc, but pity the poor climber who wonders how Coire an t-Sneachda in the Cairngorms sounds something like "corrie an tray-ach", possibly with a slight aspiration the end.

So, regardless of where we come from and which languages(s) we speak, placenames are place names. Not having English or Gaelic makes little difference as far as I can see. In my view placenames of physical features should be spelt accurately in the appropriate language; it's incumbent upon us, if we wish, to attempt to understand the pronunciation and construction, imho.

There may be different issues over the names of towns, where the angliscised version may be one in standard use, but that need not preclude bilingualism. Personally, I think people with natural curiosity about how the world works find bilingual signposting quite interesting.

[claymore]

I much prefer the Gallic spelling of Inverary to the English version.

[Mark]

I saw on the Baird Receiving Equipment that "Heaven" is a poor translation of Nevis. "Dread" is better.

Thus Loch Hourne and Loch Nevis become Loch Hell and Loch Dread. Much better IMHO.

[Aja]

I much prefer the Gallic spelling of Inverary to the English version.

Now do you mean "Inbhir Aora" or Inverary with a shrug???

Donald

[claymore]

Now do you mean "Inbhir Aora" or Inverary with a shrug???

Absolutely.
Definitely.
Every time......

[sam]

I agree with Shard, a place name is a place name. You wouldn't go to any other country and expect them to change place names into English to make them easier to pronounce. Nothing at all to do with politics.
Anyway shouldn't Lochs Nevis and Hourne become Lakes Heaven and Dread, as so many seen to have difficulty with the word Loch!

[Mark]

I agree with Shard, a place name is a place name. You wouldn't go to any other country and expect them to change place names into English to make them easier to pronounce.

In fact, is there any demand for Scottish Names to be anglicized on Charts or anywhere else? I'm a visitor, I prefer Gaelic. I'd think my view was typical of visitors.

Maybe the whole debate a bit like Harry Enfield's Frank Doberman. "but if The Sugar Babes came to Scotland and demanded English placenames I would say Oi!, Suagarbabes, NO!".

[bosun higgs]

I agree with Shard, a place name is a place name. You wouldn't go to any other country and expect them to change place names into English to make them easier to pronounce. Nothing at all to do with politics.

Thats simply not correct. There are different versions of place names in different languages. For example Munich and Munchen, Moskva and Moscow, Abertawe and Swansea.

The point I was trying to make was that it is a nonsense to drop the English language alternative names from the charts ( if thats what the UKHO has done) just leaving the Gaelic. Why not have both?

Its not an issue of local pride - its one of practicality. The common language between ( say) a Greek tanker skipper and the Scots coastguard is English however foreign it might be to both of them. They both have some skills at pronouncing English - they hear it every day on the TV etc and it is the nearest the world has to a practical international language. So why ask a Greek to try and pronounce something like " Reisa an t-Sruith". Can you imagine how the conversation might go?

And it was a proposal based on politics - I was there!

P.S. Without googling it, where is Casnewydd and how do you pronounce it?

[Alcyone]

I'll bet I'm the only fella here to have been through Sgarbstac Arch.

And I've been there twice!

Prounounced Garbastac?

[Telo]

Perhaps I lack the imagination or the knowledge, but I genuinely cannot think of any physical feature where this would be a serious issue.

For example, I doubt if Frank Lockwood's Island, off Mull, is ever going to revert to its previous name. Equally, Ardnamurchan Point could well be shared with Rubha etc, but it will still be Ardnamurchan Point to most sailors.

However, I think the Bosun is missing the main point - almost all of the named features on the west coast have never had any other name in the last few hundred years, except in Gaelic, or in gaelicised Norse. In fact anglicisation to suit non-Gaelic speakers like myself would be pointless and could even be potentially dangerous in my view. Can I attempt to illustrate this?

A few years ago we were sailing west along the south side of the Ross of Mull. Having our usual out-of-date and uncorrected charts are not a novelty for us, and while I was guessing that the new north cardinal buoy, unmarked on our chart, was marking Bogha nam Ramfhear, there was a MayDay shout from a vessel with poor transmission. We dutifully wrote down the info in the radio log, not expecting to be anywhere near the casualty, but ended up being the MayDay relay station. The caller in distress said he was in "Seal Bay" on Mull, no Lat no Long, and no more info. Clyde CG had no idea where "Seal Bay" and neither did we. Then suddenly he said he could see a navigation buoy and a yacht sailing past, which duly turned out to be ourselves. He was aground on a rock in Port nan Ron, ie "Seal Bay"-ish.

Now, as we discovered when we went in to stand by the caualty, Port nan Ron is an interesting place to visit, with red granite rocks and beautiful white sands, but it will never be a popular yacht anchorage as it can be a bit exposed from the south and there are too many rocks lurking under the surface. So, it doesn't feature in the Sailing Directions, and would be an unlikely candidate for bilingualism or anglicisation. Despite the Ross being one of the last areas on the island where Gaelic is still widely spoken, the chap on board had probably picked up the informal anglicised name from other small craft fishermen or leisure shallow draft boaters who had recently settled there. This was a small shallow draft wooden leisure boat, and probably did not carry charts, and so the skipper was dependent on what he'd heard from others with "local knowledge".

Had we not been in the vicinity, the CG would never have been able to work out where the casualty was calling from. Bearing in mind that , unlike most countries, almost every physical feature has its own name in this area, even down to individual rocks. to suggest that every rock and inlet be renamed to suit the convenience of non-Gaelic speakers would be a monumental task and inevitably lead to greater confusion imho. A placename is a placename; why muck around with it?

Incidentally, outside of these islands, I've only had short sailing holidays in Greece, Croatia and Turkey. I really wouldn't expect those countries' hygrographers to rename or go bilingual for my convenience. Why should the Gàidhealtachd ?

[bosun higgs]

As I said in my very first post on this thread, my concern was the UKHO's then stated policy of getting rid of any English language names and replacing all with Gaelic. I also said I didnt know whether they had implemented this policy or just talked about it - have they?

This isnt an issue of the national language of the UK or of the spoken language of the large majority of Scots. It's one of practicality - to many people, including most Scots, words such as " Gàidhealtachd" are unpronouncable. So why replace basics that we are all familiar with unnecessarily.

The comparison with Greece and Turkey is not a valid one, not least because the Greek or Turkish coastguards will speak to you or a French boat or a German boat in English using Anglicised place names where there are any. It's the lingua franca.

Anyway I've said enough on this subject and I dont want to upset Scots sensitivites

[ash]

Are you embarrassed by your inability to pronounce the names of your favourite anchorages and least-favourite rocks?

Do you wish you had a better grasp of this wonderful language?

You are not alone! Register today and for the remarkably reasonable price... etc.

The staff on all the company's vessels and at ports, harbours and offices are being encouraged to learn Gaelic via an online 'toolkit', developed by the Skye-based learning company Cànan specifically for CalMac and funded to the tune of £30,000 by development agency Bòrd na Gàidhlig.

Has the TAASC used his computer skills to 'crack' the toolkit?

Scotsman Article.

If we could rustle up enough interest, then we could maybe approach the company to see if they would sell access to the toolkit.

Ash

[DaveS]

Are you embarrassed by your inability to pronounce the names of your favourite anchorages and least-favourite rocks?

Do you wish you had a better grasp of this wonderful language?

You are not alone! Register today and for the remarkably reasonable price... etc.

The staff on all the company's vessels and at ports, harbours and offices are being encouraged to learn Gaelic via an online 'toolkit', developed by the Skye-based learning company Cànan specifically for CalMac and funded to the tune of £30,000 by development agency Bòrd na Gàidhlig.

Has the TAASC used his computer skills to 'crack' the toolkit?

Scotsman Article.

If we could rustle up enough interest, then we could maybe approach the company to see if they would sell access to the toolkit.

Ash

I for one would welcome the opportunity to brush up my very limited Gaelic in a relevant way. While my current knowledge of the relevant phrases for "I am cold" and "I am wet" does cover many situations, I would really like to progress a bit!

From one of the comments on the Scotsman site:

he site developed by Cànan can be used by other public bodies with parts of it, as with the Cal-Mac one, customised with vocabulary and terminology relevant to that organisation.

Therefore, although the infrastructure cost around £30k, the site can be adapted for use as more and more councils and public bodies look to deliver their Gaelic plans and the customisation will cost very much less, making this project good value for money and transferable to other situations.

it would seem that extension is intended - the only caveat being that public bodies are the target *. I would have thought that for our purposes, at least to start with, simply getting access to the Calmac package would be good enough. Maybe a later module covering more specifically "saily" stuff could be developed if there was enough interest...

* Could the RYA act as a possible providing intermediary? It's not strictly speaking public, but it is a body.