Position.

Windfinder · Post by **Windfinder** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:51 pm

Following my failure to fuel the slightest controversy with the RNLI thread I'm going to have another crack!

Elsewhere there is a discussion going about the RTIR Mayday, where a vessel gave its position relative to St Cats lighthouse.

The CG insisted on a Lat and Long.

Personally, I always find it easier to think of my position relative to something fixed to the ground. One or more nav marks or lighthouse or Island or some such. (Of course mid channel it's easier to read some numbers off the GPS.)

I'd have thought in the event of a mayday it would be even more important to use a simple and unambiguous way to state position. There seems little room for error on either side in 'I'm south of Arran' and rather a lot in reading digits off a display.

If there are multiple boats around the yacht's going to have to identify itself anyway - a Lat/Long still won't be enough to uniquely identify a yacht in a crowd.

Discuss.

Telo · Post by **Telo** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:05 pm

I fear that you're going to have trouble stirring up any controversy with this one as I'm sure most sailors will agree with you. I'm a bit surprised by the CG's insistence on lat/long (weren't we all taught to report our position in relation to a fixed object?) as they will have experienced plenty of occasions when confusion has been caused by people misreading their GPS, something that we've probably all heard before on Ch16. The other odd thing about such radio exchanges is the "accuracy" of the position reporting down to three decimal places of a minute. Keyboard rools ya .....

Post by **Silkie** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:00 pm

Sorry but I have to agree too. As a single-hander it's much easier to tell if I'm in the area from "..just north of Insh Island" rather than a stream of possibly garbled digits which I wouldn't immediately be in a position to jot down and would probably have to go below to plot anyway.

sahona · Post by **sahona** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:17 pm

So why are we being taught to do the "known point - direction - distance" thingy if the phekkin' coastguard hasn't been trained to repond?
I understood it was because of international language problems where your nearest station may be foreign and 'expecting ' to hear the position information in the correct sequence in order to relay it correctly.
Maybe there is a case for basic minimum training and conforming to rules when nearly 2000 boats are concentrated in a finite area such as the RTIR. It does seem from all the posts in TOP that the CG operator in this case had been through a charisma-bypass operation recently.

Post by **Silkie** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:49 pm

sahona wrote:So why are we being taught to do the "known point - direction - distance" thingy if the phekkin' coastguard hasn't been trained to repond?

Possibly a risk manager doing his assessment for the RTIR decided that "..just off the Needles" might well include several hundred vessels at peak times and issued an edict that lat/longs must also be obtained despite the fact that this would clearly be unlikely to help much, if at all.

Windfinder · Post by **Windfinder** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:04 pm

Another failure!

I'll never get a job picking topics for Gerry Springer.

The comment on TOP that made me howl with Laughter was the guy who said that the Lat/Long was required for the Helicopter - as though the CG and Chooper crew *between them* couldn't work out a Lat and Long from a distance and bearing!!!

Maybe teaching granny to suck eggs but quoting position to three decimal places isn't *that* stupid. I reckon 1/1000 of a NM is about 1.8m and a GPS fix with a clear view of the sky will be within 15m (Unless you have DGPS or WAAS) so with with a clear view of the sky only the last digit is actually redundant.

Still pointless, 'cos if you care where you are within 18m you shouldn't be using the GPS!

cpedw · Post by **cpedw** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:48 pm

We should remember that the CG were on strike at the weekend, so I guess there was but one soul in the office on Saturday, handling multiple Maydays over about 200 miles (?) of coastline without getting paid. If I was him/her, I'd want the max information in the simplest, quickest and least ambiguous form possible.
Lat and long, I guess, gets that done. If it's hard for the casualty, how much harder is it for the next casualty that CG isn't getting round to because they are trying to work out which (in a Scottish context) Eilan Dubh we're talking about?
Sorry, I'm just back from a very pleasant dinner with some lovely friends with a deep cellar...
Derek

Olivepage · Post by **Olivepage** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:55 pm

Hmmmm

Nice try - but no cigar.

Perhaps a less original choice of subject matter may help. The old favourites from TOP are ensigns, colregs, anchors, Muslims and MMGW.

I would suggest that something along the lines of:-

" Should a Muslim skipper be obliged to wear a blue ensign while anchored with Bruce anchor with a generator running."

ljs · Post by **ljs** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:24 am

I think any fule kno that a muslim skipper with a blue ensign and a bruce anchor with a generator running should give way to a kamikaze jetski with a cqr and a diver down...

Olivepage · Post by **Olivepage** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:10 am

Stuff and nonsense

A CQR always gives way to a Bruce

And a jet ski can only use an anchor if its on starboard tack.

What ensign was the diver wearing?

Windfinder · Post by **Windfinder** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:29 am

Olivepage wrote:A CQR always gives way to a Bruce

Surely the Bruce should give way to the CQR, since as everyone knows the CQR will be firmly set whereas the Bruce will be scraping along the sea bed allowing it free movement to avoid other anchors.

Olivepage · Post by **Olivepage** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:15 pm

Oh!

Now that is a most original proposal which could have a number of implications.

I like the theory of fixed objects giving way to moving ones

The possibilities of this are interesting

claymore · Post by **claymore** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:57 pm

This thread is complete tosh as its been hijacked by a load of mealy-mouthed compliant agreeable coves who are too scared to disagree with the original post and so wander off into sycophantic babble thinking they are being controversial - or in LJS's case - something else.
So - what is the blasted point in saying "Mayday - I'm just south of blah de blah" when any idiot who can read and has a digital radio - like me - can just spin off the numbers?
Completely negates the point of buying a digital radio - like I did - in the first place
Harrummph

jim.r · Post by **jim.r** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:31 pm

Well I think your all wrong. I never know where I am anyway and if they asked me for a position I would'nt have a clue. So I always sail with the radio open so they can home in on me when I get near anything dangerous

Julian · Post by **Julian** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:45 pm

jim.r wrote:Well I think your all wrong. I never know where I am anyway and if they asked me for a position I would'nt have a clue. So I always sail with the radio open so they can home in on me when I get near anything dangerous

tee hee

When I used to take divers out we had to protect some of our wreck sites, some of my positions I would report in to the coasty to ensure the amateur ribs would not overwhelm us during the day were pretty inventive.

Such as 35 miles nne of Rhyl when we were 5 or 6 miles off Formby was par the course. This is a guess before anyone starts plotting and telling me it is wrong, I am giving an example of form rather than an exact bearing...

oh dear, I think I am too used to TOP.

BLUEMOMENT

Position.

Position.

Re: Position.