New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

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BlowingOldBoots
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New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby BlowingOldBoots » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:09 pm

Time to change the chart table. At 43 years the old it is well worn, with lots of modifications over the years and slight delimitation where folks grab the side of it as they walk by. The lid has been cut, glued together, cut again and holes drilled for cables to pass through. Also, the seat was useless as one could not get their knees under the chart table without contortion, even then the legs had to be to the side, on the companionway sole as they could not fit underneath. The space below was generally a grot hole, with god knows what growing in the carpet lining.

The plan is to turn the chart table round fore and aft for a couple of reasons: I never sit when navigating and the space under the chart table is wasted space. The fore and aft alignment will allow more drawers and and also open up the aft section of the saloon at the galley / chart table area. There will be no lifting lid for the chart table as the charts will fit into a couple of drawers.

The original chart table was just under a full Admiralty chart size and the new arrangement will allow a full chart to be laid out, which I find much easier to work with. Also, two persons can now stand side by side if required. I'll need a galley type bum strap when healed over on starboard tack. The table will also make a great work top for whatever purpose and the plan here is to have rubber sheet to drop on the table when working on stuff.

The veneer bond on the bulkhead has failed as well as being damaged, so that will have to be peeled off and new veneer stuck down. I'll probably fit a drop down seat on the bulkhead as there will be space where the old table was, but I am not so sure what style or how it will work. The front edge of the chart table is in line with the front of the pilot berth, so there is a bit of space, but any seat must not clash with the drawers. Perhaps the lower drawer could be a cupboard with a couple of shelves.

If you have any comments or observations, good or bad, or ideas, always appreciated.

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wully
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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby wully » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:56 pm

On my old First 38 there were two deep freezers with an outboard facing chart table on top. That layout worked well - unless you were hacking upwind..

Now I’d miss sitting down planning a route.

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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby Corona » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:37 pm

Many years ago I was tempted by an X119 probably as much by the bargain price as by the speed. One of the things that put me off almost as much as the very deep torpedo keel was the outward facing chart table, I just could not see myself comfy and secure as I planned for next mornings nav. and tides. But if you are happy standing, here are my comments on your plan.
Having a bit of difficulty with the depth but I presume it does not obstruct access past the companionway ladder. 50 mm drawers fully extended will need to be strongly made with strong and smooth runners to resist torque when opened close to fully, If the runner system allows them to twist at all they may tend to jam? One deeper drawer might be easier to construct?
You might want to dedicate some storage to pilot books,tidal atlas, etc, Nice if they are stowed spine up for making a selection. Binos, hand held Vhf etc?
800 mm is really closer to sitting height than comfortable standing height. If it wus me I would keep it that height but provide a knee space in the centre, it needs to be 600mm wide and at least 500mm high so you should be able to keep both proposed chart drawers but I might be temped to have one drawer plus a slot for charts to be used. Our boat has an Ikea garden folding stool looks like teak but isn't (doubles as a table to set the gin on in the cockpit) that could be stowed in the kneespace. Discharging your heater duct in to the kneespace would be an idea?
If you stick with the plan as drawn with the intention of standing to use the table it might subject to headroom be worth considering raising the top surface a couple of inches. Easy to assess most comfortable standing and working heights in your kitchen.
Nothing wrong with the plan as drawn, you asked for comments and these are mine, I enjoy designing stuff.

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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby Corona » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:43 pm

Important correction to my comments above, knee space height should be close to 600mm. and width would work at 500mm. my figures above were transposed.

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BlowingOldBoots
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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby BlowingOldBoots » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:15 pm

Good comments Wully and Corona.

I may raise it now to 900mm but that would leave about 150 mm gap below the switch panel, which would be OK. I like the idea of the chart slot for working charts and one deep drawer. However a deep drawer means heavy wad of charts on one drawer, is that issue, probably not. I don't need to sit to plan but will have a stool when I want to sit. I have no idea how that will work but it will be more for when in harbour and chilling out in that space and will be designed later.

Wully, beating to windward is a good comment, so the bum strap will have to limit fore and aft movement. I guess this is where the conversation rapidly degenerates from chart table design to something else altogether! :roll:

In two hours time the Police State kicks in, so garage floor mock ups will be required to test concepts as Saint Nicola has deemed it illegal to travel out of soap dodger land. :cry:
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wully
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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby wully » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:39 pm

Going upwind in a bit of a breeze with an outward facing chart table you are either trying to peer over the chart which is almost at eye level or trying to stop yourself sprawling all over it..I never found any use for a bum strap as it was such a faff trying to get yer chuff close enough to the table to hook it round. It was easier on that boat to wedge a foot on the galley end.

Can you tell I’m not a fan?

Outward facing cludgies are also a no-no for me. Exiting the head airborne with yer breeks round yer ankles is not a pleasant experience for one of the crew. Amusing for the remainder though...

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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby Corona » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:57 pm

Bit Defender my internet Nanny does not like me coming here but then she objects to me using Sky Broadband so perhaps not so stupid?

Anyway, a couple more thoughts. A poke around in an upmarket kitchen showroom will give some ideas about detailing annd assembling large drawers and making sure they run and close well to compensate for the weight of charts (or you coud do what I do and only take the charts likely to be of use on each trip). Some use a stainless steel profile for the sides which incorporates the runners,this avoids risk of warping always a risk with large shallow wooden structures
Assuming the finish is clear finished veneer to match existing. as drawn there will be an awful lot of lipping to edges, a lifetimes work, an alternative might be to enlarge the drawer fronts and increase their overlap, with a dummy panel on the same plane at the tank it would be possible to bury and hide the carcass so that its focus would be on strength while the drawer fronts would meet to hide it? Perhaps with a narrow (6mm?)shadow gap between them to give a fitting tolerance. A slightly raised rounded edge lipping around each drawer front would not be too difficult to do and easier than flush edging, so a drawer front could be a veneered ply panel with something like a 6mm. mitred lipping, you can make the drawers as simple boxes delaying fixing the drawer fronts to them until everything is installed, the more you can do in a workshop the easier it will be. (You realize that you should have started this project last month)A problem with drawer fronts covering the full front is that you may have to use pull handles, if you do choose some that fold flush for the sake of your knees. If you are standing most of the time the front is going to get kicked to death so a replaceable plinth to match the drawer fronts might be an idea?

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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby Corona » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:22 pm

My insomnia leads me to trying to solve problems that I tend to invent so your chart table is a great substitute.
So I have decided what I would do. modular construction, 4 units, one sheet of 12mm veneered birch ply, one of plain. Finnish WBP birch is fine.
I would cut 6 gables from 12 or 16mm birch ply from a hardboard template of the hull profile, to make 3 units, only the exposed face of the aft one would need to be veneered, the others can be painted or stained with an outdoor stain, Sikkens or Int. Woodskin? The lower edges will need to be well sealed. The inner gables will only extend vertically to below the full width plan drawer which will be added later on top. Each gable will have a 44x19 sw batten on the aft face screwed flush with the vertical front edge. Three carcasses assembled with bottom and top surfaces battened and screwed and glued to form a frontless and backless box, the vertical battens will space the front edges and a 44x8 or 12mm vertical hardwood lipping screwed or glued to cover the front. The bases and top will extend a litlle to secure against battens on the hull, THese horizontal battens can be epoxy glued in place after planing the top so that it finishes horizontal. The drawer will be made to hang on Blum or similar metal drawer sides, if these are not stainless, another couple of coats of white paint from a rattle can might help but they should be fine. Google metal drawer kits, lots of choice of length and depth in these metal sides used mainly for kitchens. The drawers will have the Blum sides and 12 mm. birch ply front and back finished with a woodstain 8mm should be thick enough for the bottom. Now the tricky bit, when all the drawers are in position fitted so that the fronts are flush with the lipping you are going to use a part sheet of veneered ply to front the whole thing, each front will be cut in sequence to match the veneer, they will be lipped all round with matching hardwood as thin as practical and can overlap your drawerbox fronts to completely hide the carcass, separated by just a narrow shadow gap vertically and horizontally, a dummy front to hide the fuel cock. It is probably desirable to use a strip of veneered ply 12mmx 94? similarly lipped as a plinth or skirting below the bottom run of drawers. You will not have your double width bottom drawer but the modular idea will make fabrication assembly and transportation much easier. The big plan drawer (and slot) at the top will then be added, the metal drawer sides start at 89mm tall but seem not to be longer than 550mm but your folded chart is 520 so should work okay. The slot will be below the drawer on top of the three modules. 12 mm will not be stiff enogh for the top surface, 16 or 19mm ply should be okay, but if you are doing it all out of one sheet of veneered 12mm. then you can laminate on a second layer or add battens underneath above the drawer, if these are screwed and well glued they do not need to be very deep.
Just to add, my suggestion of a knee space for sitting was rubbish,there is not enough depth at floor level for feet, however if it was my boat I would not be considering an outward facing standing unit anyway. I enjoy huddling in a corner with charts, pilot books and tide tables too much to want to do it standing. I still have my CAD plotter here and can draw and print full size to any length (but max 600mm width, unless you buy m a roll of paper) if it helps, I would need firm instructions and a some more dims. but at this time of year the service is free. I might have some strips of teak if that is what the boat is.
Cheers, Joe aka Quandary or Corona (soon to be replaced with Girona, same boat just a bit of typographical adjustment).

Corona
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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby Corona » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:47 pm

Another thought, if you need good quality ply veneered or otherwise, Adam Way might be prepared to add it to his next order. Save a lot on transportation?

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BlowingOldBoots
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Re: New Chart Table for 'Sruth'

Postby BlowingOldBoots » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:58 pm

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the offer of draughting Joe, that is very kind indeed, however, Adam Way has been engaged to do the work. A&R Way have done a bit of work on the boat for me, finishing off the last refit and completing works where I needed the skills of craftsmen. Of course I have to advise my ideas so that he can build what I want, hence the objective of this thread, to glean ideas.

Regarding the veneer, the saloon key-hole bulkhead will have the veneer replaced on the charts side as it has lifted below the old chart table. In fact the veneer has been added at a later date by previous owners and various sections have been replaced around the boat. The end result is a bit of

The actual problem with the chart table is it's location as Sruth is a Centre Cockpit. To the right of the chart table (as you look at the picture) is the passage to the aft cabin. If it was the aft cockpit version then a full seat across the aft end of the chart table would be easy and all would be well. However, the passage way would be blocked if the seat extended along the length of a normally orientated chart table. This means that the seat with back is only the length of the bit on top of the fuel tank which has the pilot berth above it. There was a flip up seat but as it had no back and was not a comfortable perch.

Take away from the conversations so far: -

1. Raise height to 900mm. We will see if this can be done while still leaving sufficient clearance below the switch panel.
2. Lower chart drawer will not be a drawer but a slot with pull down front that looks the same as the drawer above. This is where I will store charts not being used. The working charts, mostly West Coast, will be in the top drawer. As the plan is to sail onwards, charts will flip between the two drawers.
3. The lower drawer will have to be carefully checked as that is where pilot books and stuff will be stored.
4. Recessed handles not to catch on knees.

The chart table as it existed was a poor work top for whatever tasks needed to be done on a work top. I would like to have a surface that has greater utility and feel that the orientation will allow that as well as improve the ergonomics of the space. I am liberating about 400mm of width in front of the new chart table, into the space towards the galley, so plenty of space to add in a seat of some sort. However, I have not given that any thought to what a seat or stool will look like as it will be a later addition.

Regards, Alastair
BlowingOldBoots

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