newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

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merchaud
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newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby merchaud » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:12 pm

Hi,
This is my first post. I am planning to buy a budget boat (10k ish) after I complete a few courses I have just booked.
However I am concerned that the web search on mooring costs has proved scary. I would be looking North Wales or lancashire coast region. So far it looks like >£1k
Any opinions on this, what do most people do, moor over summer and then out of the water in winter? Are there other options than pricy marinas?

Expensive mooring seems to complete undermine budget sailing.

Cheers

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aquaplane
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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby aquaplane » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:34 pm

Welcome to the forum.

I keep my Centaur on a swinging mooring on Windermere, it's £850 a year, £106 per meter.

Look for a mooring not in a marina, but I have no feeling for how much they may be. I can only assume they are cheap when you look at somewhere like Ravensglass.
Seminole.
Cheers Bob.

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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby JohnBuch » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:18 pm

Can't comment on Wales/ NW England particularly but I too have been trying to boat on a budget. I got my Albin Vega for 10k. Would recommend a Vega because of the sturdy construction and the backup from a very active class association.

Up until this year I rented a mooring for the summer c.£650 for a 27' boat and kept the boat on the hard in a marina in winter, about £700 to £800.
In the spring I bought a mooring from a sailing club for £800. My ongoing annual costs will be c. £55 for Crown Estates and £80 to £100 for inspection. In this case it is a condition of owning the mooring that I join the sailing club will be £185 so total of £340. There will be maintenance costs, but hopefully not for a few years. So in theory you could lay your own mooring and then have a few years of c.£150 for summer costs.

In a way winter is tougher - my great plan for this winter coming was to put the boat on a mooring over the winter but my insurance company are not happy about that. Some companies will insure for winter swinging moorings but require regular surveys (expensive). I just met a couple up in Ullapool who keep their boat on a mooring overr the winter and don't bother to insure it- personally I wouldn't be wild about this idea as if your boat did break free from it's mooring and damage another (very expensive) boat you would have no financial cover.

This year I am going to get two quotes - one from a yard (probably about £650/ £700) and another from a marina. Winter pontoon berths can be a similar price to being on the hard or cheaper as the demand in winter is for being on the hard not in the water.

I know folks on the forum will have different experiences but this is what I have found so far.

Cheers

John

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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby JackJ » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:57 pm

Seriously, Merchaud, don't think about leaving her in the water this coming winter, unless, of course, you can afford very expensive insurance and the inspections which go with it.
Global Warming is now getting to the state that all scientists are predicting far more frequent and far more severe winter storms. Only an idiot would stay in the water this winter. Last was mild so we must have built up some real trouble for next Jan and Feb. Whatever the cost get into a yard. If you can't afford it or the insurance then sell your boat now and pick up a cheapie wreck for rebuild from the windblown fools in the Spring.

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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby Booby Trapper » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:49 pm

JackJ wrote:Seriously, Merchaud, don't think about leaving her in the water this coming winter, unless, of course, you can afford very expensive insurance and the inspections which go with it.
Global Warming is now getting to the state that all scientists are predicting far more frequent and far more severe winter storms. Only an idiot would stay in the water this winter. Last was mild so we must have built up some real trouble for next Jan and Feb. Whatever the cost get into a yard. If you can't afford it or the insurance then sell your boat now and pick up a cheapie wreck for rebuild from the windblown fools in the Spring.


Last winter was mild??????
Rubbish, I spent more days scraping ice off windows this year than any other year I can remember I spent a a weekend in Aviemore when the temperature never got above -5 during the day and down to -18 at night.

But this should be another thread :oops: :oops:

merchaud
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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby merchaud » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:18 pm

Hi,
Thanks for your input, I certainly had no idea that sailing clubs could offer moorings for purchase.
The more I dig the more I realise absolutely everything needs analysing. Tricky insurance for swinging moorings for instance.
Also i was looking at actual cruising speeds. If you got 4-5 k going out of port then later in the day the wind and the tide may be against you and the tide so your actual speed is more like 1K ? Then the implications are that a day out on the water doesn't add up much distance. Your mooring could dictate the same day cruise over and over. It may be worth driving further to a mooring that offers more options than a straight forward coast line.
I like the idea of a bilge keel which opens up more mooring options.
Any suggestion on other areas to scrutinise before I move from sailing the kitchen table to the real deal?
Pat

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Nick
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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby Nick » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:32 pm

.
Merchaud,

We have year-round third party insurance for our Albin Vega for £120 from Bishop Skinner (aka Blue Fin). This covers us to stay in all year on a swinging mooring and also covers us for all European waters (including the Canaries and Azores, which is why we originally went with them as we had a wee jaunt down that way).

(If you want fully comp you will have to pay a minimum of £300 for a survey first, and will be lucky to find a policy that doesn't require your boat to be on the hard or in a marina during the Winter months.)

Buy your own mooring in a sheltered spot and make sure your ground tackle is bombproof, then you won't have any worries. We left Fairwinds (Albin Vega 27) in the water the year of the 'Hebrides Hurricane' when Oban was on the news because the seafront had boats washed up on it and she survived 80mph winds with no problem. I would recommend fitting two strops from the riser to the boat, and if you are not planning on using her for a couple of months then you can take the sails and sprayhood off her to minimise windage.

Otherwise, expect to pay a minimum of £800 for Winter storage ashore. Many places seem cheaper, but then there is lift out, mast cranage, lift in etc . . . always check for the extras.

Check out Fleetwood down your way - http://www.marinasonline.net/marinas/de ... ur-village - a certain Claymore of this parish will advise.

However - North Wales marinas will be more expensive, but will provide much better local cruising - Fleetwood, Whitehaveen and Maryport offer little in the way of attractive day sails.
- Nick 8)

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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby claymore » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:45 pm

I think Fleetwood would cost around £800 for 6 months for a £26 ft boat. Join Blackpool and Fleetwood YC and you could get brought out for a few bob then its about £10 - £20 a month on the hard over the winter

There are still ways of doing this without breaking the bank if you take the time to research
Regards
Claymore
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aquaplane
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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby aquaplane » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:48 pm

I'm dreaming of tidal sailing again.

Fleetwood is a possibility, what's access like, from the WWW site it looks to be HW±1.5hrs? And where do folk go for the W/E, anyone know?

Conwy and Porthmadog have been suggested too, anyone any experience round there?

Porthmadog only came up 'cos a non-sailing bloke I work with has a sister who lives there, the moorings seem cheap so I'm assuming you can't get out so easy and when you do there isn't anywhere to go.
Seminole.
Cheers Bob.

Julian

North Wales Mooring

Postby Julian » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:57 pm

The OP is correct, there IS something better and cheaper than the boating equivalent of an NCP car park. I will state for the record that as well as being a tight wad sailor I also vehemently detest marinas and 'let-them-eat-cake' marina developments in the UK.

The OP is looking for a cheap place to park in North Wales, well like houses you get what you pay for. North Wales is very popular with the Birmingham set and this demand has in some places pushed prices up. Unlike the south coast of England, the Welsh still seem adverse to fleecing their customers; accepting of course Aberystwyth marina, it is worth noting though, many many boats left Aberystwyth last year when they hiked the fees again...

Another difference to the South Coast, we don't have limitless funds and will up and move long before the pips whimper.

Porthmadog has been mentioned, which is where we tether the boat to the mud. We pay about* (er outdoors pays the mooring*) £600 all up for a secure harbour mooring (26ft), smack in the centre of the village. Even within a small area such as Porthmadog there are price variations (not enormous) dependant upon the type of mooring you can get. We are I guess on a half tide mooring, we never dry out but do touch bottom on springs. An advantage as we can always get on board by dinghy. Cheaper moorings completely dry out, nothing wrong with drying moorings, but these can leave you stranded without forward planning, i.e. you always need to be on the same side as your tender. Almost all the harbours are restricted by tides, but within the harbour some boats are always afloat, semi afloat, fully drying etc.

The walls at Porthmadog are owned by different people and wall moorings are available, but I would be careful which if any of these you might choose. The holiday tourists always tend to stay on the North Quays, this means a wall mooring on the North walls of the harbour will be subject to noise, trash thrown onto your boat, kids climbing on your boat and you living in a fish tank when on board.

The river moorings are favoured by many for privacy and better access at the ends of tides. There is another advantage in that they are not as sheltered from the winds, why is this an advantage, well, this is purely a personal observation from having my boat on all sorts of moorings around the town, I often don't know what wind there is until I am half way up the river, it can change from a lovely sunny afternoon to something rather horrid the further we progress to sea. Porthmadog does have excellent shelter, as it is quite a trek to the irish sea.

Now, being a lazy git, I will er on the side of caution and stay-in than go for a look-see only to turn back after an hours chugging out to sea. It is a pay off, one that I am pondering at the moment, we wake up in a beautiful harbour in the mornings, we can get on board in nearly all weather (only once said no in a full F11 when we were on the river, the boat was sitting fine, I just didn't fancy the tender). Since we moved up to the town moorings we have used the boat less. Even though the whole harbour is in-the-same-boat access-wise, i.e. we are all restricted to tides to get in and out, we did use the boat far more when we moored on the river. OTOH, Porthmadog is one of the prettiest harbours on this coast, many visiting boats come from uglier places to spend the weekend here, as we are already here, on a nice sunny day it can be just as pleasant to sit out and watch life go by.

We left Porthmadog for a while and kept the boat in Pwllheli, there are still plenty of small boat moorings available, especially if you can dry out. Prices are very much similar to Porthmadog and access is far better, 24hr on much of the harbour. Don't be frightened off by google only seeing the marina, contact the harbour master of both Porthmadog and Pwllheli for moorings availability (they often swap and cover for each other so most Gwynedd know all the harbours and availability of neighbouring harbours very well indeed) . Pwllheli is a particularly ugly town with little to do there, but as you are at sea within minutes of dropping the mooring strops, access is far easier with a much more friendly entrance, we did use the boat far more when we stayed there. There are many more facilities ashore, chandlers and yards, easier to get fuel (though PM has fuel, it is not as simple as Pwllheli as it means a trip by dinghy to the HM and lugging a can up, or going to the garage across the road, of course you can come alongside at HW, but I am a lazy sailor).

Cheaper moorings are available at mocras lagoon (shell Island), some are free if you put your own chains down. There is little infrastructure here and the entrance can be a right old git even in a moderate breeze. Shell Island all dries too.

Then there is Abersoch, in general these are absolutely summer moorings as most are extremely open. I am only guessing here, but I assume what you might save in mooring fees at Abersoch, you will make up for in annual craning, yard fees and insurance premiums compared to a more sheltered mooring (we stay in 12 months, though my insurance has *just* restricted me to 10 miles radius during winter, (fine as we only use the boat as a cottage in winter).

Another popular harbour is Barmouth, I like Barmouth once you're in, but the channel and sand-bar can be challenging, mostly in the prevailing winds. Barmouth probably gets most visitors from all the other harbours in the area, the atmosphere in Summer can be great... though I would say (IMO) Barmouth has the least shelter within the harbour of all the above places I have mentioned (except Abersoch). Many if not all the available moorings will dry out, I could be wrong, but the wet moorings always appear to be full. Though it is worth noting at this point, all the harbours in the area are council run and do run a fair policy of hierarchy, you start on a rubbish mooring and move up the longer you are there, rather than just flashing your wallet and going straight on to the best locations. This is not to be taken as dead man's boots, I reckon within 2 years you will be accepted as a local boat and be given refusal when spots come up.

The final location I will mention in this essay as it has turned out, is Aberdovey, a pretty seaside town more probably approaching mid-Wales in reality. Personally, I would not keep a boat there as the shelter is not as I would like, the prevailing wind howls down the estuary and after a night on board where we were taking green water over the bow on the visitors mooring (which had dragged) (F9 with a strong fetch) we had surfed over the sand-bar the previous day (not funny at all!) I will no longer entertain Aberdovey in anything but fine weather.. saying that, there are many local boats who obviously feel different.

Sorry to ramble on, I know big posts tend to be ignored, I am just writing stuff as I think of it.

As all the harbours in this area are council run, the costs to moor are generally very similar, the cost is broken down into harbour dues and mooring fees. I think our harbour dues are fixed at approx £140pa and then mooring fees will vary dependant upon location. Whenever we have moved moorings within the Gwynedd area, the difference in mooring fees has been so small such that we don't really notice it.

I hope some of this tripe has given you some ideas and I will happily answer any queries this may have raised, unless those queries refer to my metal health for writing such a long and empty diatribe :roll:

p.s. All the local harbours provide some dinghy storage, some have better car parking than others. All of them have local shops a walk from the harbour, many have larger supermarkets within minutes by car. If you sail from here, local boats stay in neighbouring harbours as visitors at reduced rates, for example, at 26ft we pay £5 per night to stay on the wall when we are visitors. We never stay on marinas (tight wad) even in Pwllheli where it seems visitors are supposed to go to the marina, we will raft alongside a local boat when visiting.. this is normal practice, I am always bemused when people go into Pwllheli as visitors and pay upwards of £35 a night when we are paying £5 for a more private and better view. I guess it depends if you are scared of tenders or not.

p.s. All my rambling assumes that you have a boat that takes to the ground, things get a great deal more complicated if you are the type of :oops: idiot :oops: that buys a keel yacht to sail one of the most tidal areas in the country, in some cases the planet.

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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby Silkie » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:30 pm

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Not TIC btw. Superb post.

Dawg but that is annoying!
different colours made of tears

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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby Arghiro » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:51 pm

You won't get a marina for much under £3k. Even swinging moorings in the more popular areas will cost £1k pa. Cheap moorings can be had where access by sea &/or road is difficult or when location is exposed (NW'lys are particularly bad over an ebb tide on the Mersey Dee & Conway rivers) Tides are really big & lots of tide gates for drying harbours, overfalls, headlands, the Swellies, Trwyn Ddu & Caernarfon bar to name but a few.

Cheaper locations; River Alt (nr Formby/Bootle), Mersey at New Brighton & Tranmere (exposed & not good cruising), River Dee (very exposed N'Wly), Beaumaris (mud flats & roll like a pig), Bangor (mud flats), Rhyl (tricky entrance in strong onshore winds), Red Wharf bay (exposed NW'ly at high water). Many of these allow you to lay your own mooring, but you will need to get local acceptance (club or local mooring layer).

Drive around the places & chat to local boaters. Visit the clubs & ask. You need lots of opinions - they will all differ :D Then you can decide.

Julian

Some foaties of the harbours I mentioned

Postby Julian » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:14 pm

Aberdovey
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looking toward the visitors moorings at Aberdovey
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Barmouth
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Horrid weather in Barmouth
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Various moorings inc the visitors wall at Barmouth
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Mochras Lagoon (Shell Island) Gwynedd
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Drying moorings at Mochras
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Harlech Castle near entrance to Shell Island
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Porthmadog
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town harbour
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River moorings
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harbour moorings
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Approaching Porthmadog
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Pwllheli
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Moorings
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Pile Moorings at Pwllheli
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Pwllheli from HM toward marina
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Abersoch
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moorings (looking out to sea)
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Hope this post hasn't annoyed anyone :umbrella:

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Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby aquaplane » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:16 am

Julian, thankyou for your reply. It's what forums are about, informed opinion from those that have been there and done it.

Much better than opinion from folk who know nowt but talk loud about it.

The bloke I work with's BiL owns the South wall in Porthmadog but it seems it is potentially full at the moment. I don't know if I would like to go from a swinging mooring to a wall, walls are hard even at a good price plus a couple of hundred harbour fees.

Anything less than the £900 I pay now is a bonus and I think I could choose between the drying and non-drying moorings even though I'm one of those idiots who buys a bilge keeler for non-tidal Windermere.
Seminole.
Cheers Bob.

Julian

Re: newbie wants to know what mooring costs may be.

Postby Julian » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:55 am

Nick wrote:.
Merchaud,

We have year-round third party insurance for our Albin Vega for £120 from Bishop Skinner (aka Blue Fin). This covers us to stay in all year on a swinging mooring and also covers us for all European waters (including the Canaries and Azores, which is why we originally went with them as we had a wee jaunt down that way).


Out of interest, does 3rd party cover wreck removal?


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